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	<title>Comments on: The four traditionalist bishops: were they ever validly excommunicated?</title>
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	<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/</link>
	<description>Donald is a bilingual photographer, Helvetica fanatic and Prince Philip worshipper</description>
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		<title>By: astorg</title>
		<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>astorg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/#comment-18</guid>
		<description>&lt;u&gt;Update&lt;/u&gt;: Mgr Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, in an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/68fdc1aa-eb30-11dd-b87c-1c3fffea55dc/Je_crois_à_linfaillibilité_de_lEglise&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;interview&lt;/a&gt; with Genevan newspaper &lt;i&gt;Le Temps&lt;/i&gt;, has distanced himself from Mgr Williamson:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;- Do you condemn the negationist declarations of Bishop Williamson?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;- [Fellay:] It does not belong to me to condemn them. I do not have the competence for his. But I deplore that a Bishop may have given the impression of involving the Fraternity with a view that is not ours.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><u>Update</u>: Mgr Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, in an <a href="http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/68fdc1aa-eb30-11dd-b87c-1c3fffea55dc/Je_crois_à_linfaillibilité_de_lEglise" rel="nofollow">interview</a> with Genevan newspaper <i>Le Temps</i>, has distanced himself from Mgr Williamson:</p>
<blockquote><p>- Do you condemn the negationist declarations of Bishop Williamson?</p>
<p>- [Fellay:] It does not belong to me to condemn them. I do not have the competence for his. But I deplore that a Bishop may have given the impression of involving the Fraternity with a view that is not ours.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: astorg</title>
		<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>astorg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/#comment-17</guid>
		<description>@John from Atlanta:  You have a point about the dichotomy between the two decisions (1988 and 2009).  But neither decision was made for political reasons.  Indeed, the Holy See&#039;s position in 1988 was that the decision was not theirs to take, since the bishops would have become excommunicate &lt;I&gt;ipso facto&lt;/i&gt;, entirely by their own doing.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In reality, the double standard applied to the Chinese Patriotic Church after 1951 and to the SSPX many years later shows that the John Paul II&#039;s Holy See &lt;i&gt;was&lt;/i&gt; being slightly disingenuous.  Ultimately, the grounds invoked were disciplinary (lack of submission to the Pope) rather than theological, and in the matter of discipline there is rather more room for flexibility.  Put otherwise, times have changed and in 2007, the disciplinary perspective has shifted dramatically.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Regarding Mgr Williamson&#039;s views, I was not suggesting they should be brushed under the carpet.  Being a negationist is not grounds for being excommunicated.  It is certainly unacceptable for &lt;i&gt;anyone&lt;/i&gt; in a position of authority.  So it is to be hoped that the SSPX, which has already expressed its displeasure, will take the appropriate action.&lt;/I&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John from Atlanta:  You have a point about the dichotomy between the two decisions (1988 and 2009).  But neither decision was made for political reasons.  Indeed, the Holy See&#39;s position in 1988 was that the decision was not theirs to take, since the bishops would have become excommunicate <i>ipso facto</i>, entirely by their own doing.</p>
<p>In reality, the double standard applied to the Chinese Patriotic Church after 1951 and to the SSPX many years later shows that the John Paul II&#39;s Holy See <i>was</i> being slightly disingenuous.  Ultimately, the grounds invoked were disciplinary (lack of submission to the Pope) rather than theological, and in the matter of discipline there is rather more room for flexibility.  Put otherwise, times have changed and in 2007, the disciplinary perspective has shifted dramatically.</p>
<p>Regarding Mgr Williamson&#39;s views, I was not suggesting they should be brushed under the carpet.  Being a negationist is not grounds for being excommunicated.  It is certainly unacceptable for <i>anyone</i> in a position of authority.  So it is to be hoped that the SSPX, which has already expressed its displeasure, will take the appropriate action.</p>
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		<title>By: John from Atlanta</title>
		<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>John from Atlanta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Three things are concerning about Pope Benedict XVI&#039;s decision to re-instate these men.  First, as a group they have been openly atagonistic to the changes brought about by Vactican II. Since these men have not been required to repudiate their prior statements regarding Vactican II should the laity infer that the current Pope is equally antagonistic to these changes?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, the dramatic reversal of this decision in such a short time frame (20 years) is disturbing.  Either Pope John Paul II was wrong to excommunicate these men or Pope Benedict is wrong to reinstate them.  There is no middle ground here.  The lack of any theological explanation leaves the laity with the strong impression that this decision was made for political reasons.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Third, Richard Williamson views are indeed relevant.  The Church should be collectively embarrassed that a nutter like this was allowed to reach a position of leadership in the first place.  We finally get rid of the guy (though I agree his excommunication was not principally due to his anti-Simitic views), we should at least have the common sense and decency not to allow him back into the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three things are concerning about Pope Benedict XVI&#39;s decision to re-instate these men.  First, as a group they have been openly atagonistic to the changes brought about by Vactican II. Since these men have not been required to repudiate their prior statements regarding Vactican II should the laity infer that the current Pope is equally antagonistic to these changes?</p>
<p>Second, the dramatic reversal of this decision in such a short time frame (20 years) is disturbing.  Either Pope John Paul II was wrong to excommunicate these men or Pope Benedict is wrong to reinstate them.  There is no middle ground here.  The lack of any theological explanation leaves the laity with the strong impression that this decision was made for political reasons.  </p>
<p>Third, Richard Williamson views are indeed relevant.  The Church should be collectively embarrassed that a nutter like this was allowed to reach a position of leadership in the first place.  We finally get rid of the guy (though I agree his excommunication was not principally due to his anti-Simitic views), we should at least have the common sense and decency not to allow him back into the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: jonnybullet</title>
		<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>jonnybullet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>What if a baptized adult Christian sexually molests a child? Is the sinner so wicked that Jehovah will never forgive him? Not necessarily so. Jesus said that &#039;blasphemy against the holy spirit&#039; was unforgivable. And Paul said that there is no sacrifice for sins left for one who practices sin willfully despite knowing the truth. (Luke 12:10; Hebrews 10:26, 27) But nowhere does the Bible say that an adult Christian who sexually abuses a child—whether incestuously or otherwise—cannot be forgiven. Indeed, his sins can be washed clean if he repents sincerely from the heart and turns his conduct around. However, he may still have to struggle with the wrong fleshly impulses he cultivated. (Ephesians 1:7) And there may be consequences that he cannot avoid.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this. Moreover, the man has revealed a serious weakness that henceforth will have to be taken into account. If he seems to be repentant, he will be encouraged to make spiritual progress, share in the field service, even have parts in the Theocratic Ministry School and nonteaching parts in the Service Meeting. This does not mean, though, that he will qualify to serve in a position of responsibility in the congregation. What are the Scriptural reasons for this?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For one thing, an elder must be &quot;self-controlled.&quot; (Titus 1:8) True, none of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25) But a dedicated adult Christian who falls into the sin of child sexual abuse reveals an unnatural fleshly weakness. Experience has shown that such an adult may well molest other children. True, not every child molester repeats the sin, but many do. And the congregation cannot read hearts to tell who is and who is not liable to molest children again. (Jeremiah 17:9) Hence, Paul&#039;s counsel to Timothy applies with special force in the case of baptized adults who have molested children: &quot;Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others.&quot; (1 Timothy 5:22) For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.—Compare the principle at Exodus 21:28, 29.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Some may ask, &#039;Have not some committed other types of sin and apparently repented, only to repeat their sin later?&#039; Yes, that has happened, but there are other factors to consider. If, for example, an individual makes immoral advances to another adult, the adult should be able to resist his or her advances. Children are much easier to deceive, confuse, or terrorize. The Bible speaks of a child&#039;s lack of wisdom. (Proverbs 22:15; 1 Corinthians 13:11) Jesus used children as an example of humble innocence. (Matthew 18:4; Luke 18:16, 17) The innocence of a child includes a complete lack of experience. Most children are open, eager to please, and thus vulnerable to abuse by a scheming adult whom they know and trust. Therefore, the congregation has a responsibility before Jehovah to protect its children.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Well-trained children learn to obey and honor their parents, the elders, and other adults. (Ephesians 6:1, 2; 1 Timothy 5:1, 2; Hebrews 13:7) It would be a shocking perversion if one of these authority figures were to misuse that child&#039;s innocent trust so as to seduce or force him or her to submit to sexual acts. Those who have been sexually molested in this way often struggle for years to overcome the resulting emotional trauma. Hence, a child molester is subject to severe congregational discipline and restrictions. It is not his status as an authority figure that should be of concern but, rather, the unblemished purity of the congregation.—1 Corinthians 5:6; 2 Peter 3:14.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If a child molester sincerely repents, he will recognize the wisdom of applying Bible principles. If he truly learns to abhor what is wicked, he will despise what he did and struggle to avoid repeating his sin. (Proverbs 8:13; Romans 12:9) Further, he will surely thank Jehovah for the greatness of His love, as a result of which a repentant sinner, such as he is, can still worship our holy God and hope to be among &quot;the upright&quot; who will reside on earth forever.—Proverbs 2:21.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if a baptized adult Christian sexually molests a child? Is the sinner so wicked that Jehovah will never forgive him? Not necessarily so. Jesus said that &#39;blasphemy against the holy spirit&#39; was unforgivable. And Paul said that there is no sacrifice for sins left for one who practices sin willfully despite knowing the truth. (Luke 12:10; Hebrews 10:26, 27) But nowhere does the Bible say that an adult Christian who sexually abuses a child—whether incestuously or otherwise—cannot be forgiven. Indeed, his sins can be washed clean if he repents sincerely from the heart and turns his conduct around. However, he may still have to struggle with the wrong fleshly impulses he cultivated. (Ephesians 1:7) And there may be consequences that he cannot avoid.</p>
<p>Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this. Moreover, the man has revealed a serious weakness that henceforth will have to be taken into account. If he seems to be repentant, he will be encouraged to make spiritual progress, share in the field service, even have parts in the Theocratic Ministry School and nonteaching parts in the Service Meeting. This does not mean, though, that he will qualify to serve in a position of responsibility in the congregation. What are the Scriptural reasons for this?</p>
<p>For one thing, an elder must be &#8220;self-controlled.&#8221; (Titus 1:8) True, none of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25) But a dedicated adult Christian who falls into the sin of child sexual abuse reveals an unnatural fleshly weakness. Experience has shown that such an adult may well molest other children. True, not every child molester repeats the sin, but many do. And the congregation cannot read hearts to tell who is and who is not liable to molest children again. (Jeremiah 17:9) Hence, Paul&#39;s counsel to Timothy applies with special force in the case of baptized adults who have molested children: &#8220;Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others.&#8221; (1 Timothy 5:22) For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.—Compare the principle at Exodus 21:28, 29.</p>
<p>Some may ask, &#39;Have not some committed other types of sin and apparently repented, only to repeat their sin later?&#39; Yes, that has happened, but there are other factors to consider. If, for example, an individual makes immoral advances to another adult, the adult should be able to resist his or her advances. Children are much easier to deceive, confuse, or terrorize. The Bible speaks of a child&#39;s lack of wisdom. (Proverbs 22:15; 1 Corinthians 13:11) Jesus used children as an example of humble innocence. (Matthew 18:4; Luke 18:16, 17) The innocence of a child includes a complete lack of experience. Most children are open, eager to please, and thus vulnerable to abuse by a scheming adult whom they know and trust. Therefore, the congregation has a responsibility before Jehovah to protect its children.</p>
<p>Well-trained children learn to obey and honor their parents, the elders, and other adults. (Ephesians 6:1, 2; 1 Timothy 5:1, 2; Hebrews 13:7) It would be a shocking perversion if one of these authority figures were to misuse that child&#39;s innocent trust so as to seduce or force him or her to submit to sexual acts. Those who have been sexually molested in this way often struggle for years to overcome the resulting emotional trauma. Hence, a child molester is subject to severe congregational discipline and restrictions. It is not his status as an authority figure that should be of concern but, rather, the unblemished purity of the congregation.—1 Corinthians 5:6; 2 Peter 3:14.</p>
<p>If a child molester sincerely repents, he will recognize the wisdom of applying Bible principles. If he truly learns to abhor what is wicked, he will despise what he did and struggle to avoid repeating his sin. (Proverbs 8:13; Romans 12:9) Further, he will surely thank Jehovah for the greatness of His love, as a result of which a repentant sinner, such as he is, can still worship our holy God and hope to be among &#8220;the upright&#8221; who will reside on earth forever.—Proverbs 2:21.</p>
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		<title>By: jonnybullet</title>
		<link>http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>jonnybullet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donaldjenkins.net/2009/01/the-four-tradionalist-bishops-were-they-ever-validly-excommunicated/#comment-14</guid>
		<description>True Christians today should stand out for their distinctive way of life, just as they did in the first century. Accordingly, Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to adhere strictly to the precepts established by the first Christians. Their efforts to pattern their lives after the teachings of the Bible are noticed by others.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;True Christians are zealous evangelizers, as they were centuries ago&lt;br&gt;For instance, the New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that Jehovah’s Witnesses are known as “one of the best-behaved groups in the world.” The Deseret News of Salt Lake City, Utah, observed that Jehovah’s Witnesses “promote strong family ties and develop productive and honest citizens.” The newspaper added: “Members believe in a strong moral code. They believe smoking, overdrinking, drug misuse, gambling, sexual promiscuity and homosexuality are spiritually damaging practices. They teach honesty and good work habits.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Witnesses also take to heart their responsibility to be zealous evangelizers. Commenting on this the New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “The fundamental obligation of each member . . . is to give witness to Jehovah by announcing His approaching Kingdom. . . . To be a true Witness one must preach effectively in one way or another.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Clearly, true Christianity is much more than membership in one of the many religions of Christendom. Jesus himself foretold the rise of counterfeit Christians. (Matthew 7:22, 23) Jehovah’s Witnesses invite you to learn what Jesus taught and put it into practice. That is what it means to be a Christian. Jesus said: “If you know these things, happy you are if you do them.”—John 13:17.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;--------------------------------------------------------------------------------&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* One dictionary defines a Christian as someone who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or who follows the religion based on his life and teachings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True Christians today should stand out for their distinctive way of life, just as they did in the first century. Accordingly, Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to adhere strictly to the precepts established by the first Christians. Their efforts to pattern their lives after the teachings of the Bible are noticed by others.</p>
<p>True Christians are zealous evangelizers, as they were centuries ago<br />For instance, the New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that Jehovah’s Witnesses are known as “one of the best-behaved groups in the world.” The Deseret News of Salt Lake City, Utah, observed that Jehovah’s Witnesses “promote strong family ties and develop productive and honest citizens.” The newspaper added: “Members believe in a strong moral code. They believe smoking, overdrinking, drug misuse, gambling, sexual promiscuity and homosexuality are spiritually damaging practices. They teach honesty and good work habits.”</p>
<p>The Witnesses also take to heart their responsibility to be zealous evangelizers. Commenting on this the New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “The fundamental obligation of each member . . . is to give witness to Jehovah by announcing His approaching Kingdom. . . . To be a true Witness one must preach effectively in one way or another.”</p>
<p>Clearly, true Christianity is much more than membership in one of the many religions of Christendom. Jesus himself foretold the rise of counterfeit Christians. (Matthew 7:22, 23) Jehovah’s Witnesses invite you to learn what Jesus taught and put it into practice. That is what it means to be a Christian. Jesus said: “If you know these things, happy you are if you do them.”—John 13:17.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>* One dictionary defines a Christian as someone who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or who follows the religion based on his life and teachings.</p>
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